To be honest, I read Devdutt Pattanaik for the first time only a week ago, starting with Shikhandi: And Other Tales They Don’t Tell You. I was scampering for more books by him, when I learned he’s authored around 40 since 1997.
The prolific bestselling author has created a unique position for himself amongst Indian readers. He’s separated mythology from religion (a massive undertaking in our country) and distilled its philosophy and logic into accessible formats. Millennia-old stories and concepts have been made super relevant for the 21st century. “Few understand the power of mythology,” he says. “It expresses perceptions of a society. It always has. It always will. Those who do not understand or accept the reality of myths relegate myths to the past, or to primitive people. As people change, their myths change and so do their stories, symbols and rituals.”
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This approach has influenced his writing on queer tales. He references them from ancient texts, and thus legitimises their presence in history. In Indian mythology Shikhandi was a man with a female body, and with his story and similar ones, Pattanaik wanted to distinguish the fact that queerness isn’t new or a Western import. In I am Divine. So Are You, published last year, he delves further into religion, looking the position of sexual identity within Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism.
Pattanaik is now working on his next book Shyam, an illustrated retelling of the Bhagavata, that retells the life of Krishna from birth to death. In an interview with VICE, Pattanaik discusses his writing process, research methods, and the most surprising lessons Indian mythology taught him.
VICE: In the introduction to I Am Divine. So Are You, y ou say that religions—Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism—affirm the dignity of queer identities. That’s pretty intriguing.
Devdutt Pattanaik: In old Indian languages, Sanskrit, Prakrit and Tamil, there are always three genders, not two: male, female and queer. There are many words for queer: napunsaka, kliba, kinnara, pandaka, pedi, and they are all described as sexual beings, some purusha rupi (masculine), some strirupi (feminine). They are referred to the Buddhist manual for monks, Vinaya Pitaka, and in Jain writings on gender. There is even a Sanskrit short play Ubhay Abhisarika by Vararuchi involving a tragic-comic queer character, whose male lover has run away with the maid. This is very unlike Abrahamic religions, which dominate the world, that tend to be binary. So we realised there is ample scope in Karmic religions that originated in South Asia to affirm the dignity of queer individuals.
Tell us a little bit about the research it entailed?
Most of the research for this book was done by the authors of various chapters such as Sukhdeep Singh for Sikhism, Sachin Jain for Jainism, Vivek Tejuja for Buddhism, Meera Baindur for Hinduism, and Jerry Johnson who edited the entire book. We owe a lot to scholars who have researched on these topics such as John Powers ( Bull of a Man), Raquel A.G. Reyes and William Clarence-Smith ( Sexual Diversity in Asia, circa 600-1950), Ruth Vanita and Salim Kidwai ( Same Sex Love in India), and Leonard Zwilling and Michael J. Sweet ( Like a City Ablaze).
What surprised you the most about the research in I Am Divine, So Are You .
For me personally it was the verse from Tulsidas’ Ramcharitmanas, where Ram considers queers, men, women, plants and animals, as equal. This was in contrast to a verse popularised by feminists that this rather popular sacred text sees women as inferior, worthy of violence, almost suggesting misogyny is ‘prescribed’ by Hinduism. While the latter verse is a line spoken by Varuna, the sea-god, to Ram, the former is a line spoken by Ram himself to the crow, Kakabhushundi. I realised how politics makes people cherry pick lines. Both the leftists as well as rightists of India tell their constituency partial truths that suit their power games. No one knows or shares everything.
What do you think about revisionism of history in books? How can we counteract that?
History textbooks are mythologies of nation states to promote patriotism around the world. British children are not taught about the evils of the British empire. Americans are not even taught ‘evolution’. Pakistani textbooks will paint Hindus as evil to justify why it is the world’s first Islamic state. Why should Indians be different? Our politicians have agendas too and they promote academicians who serve their politics. Our understanding of Ashoka and Chanakya today is more fiction than fact. A television series even showed them as contemporaries and no one complained. History is constantly being revised and fictionalised by storytellers and even academicians in pursuit of an agenda. I like to see what the basis is of making a claim. A good historian will give good tangible evidence and accept explanations based on new evidence. A bad historian, or propagandist, will use more emotion than facts, and scream and shout if you offer them an alternative narrative.
You wrote Queer Tales They Don’t Tell You in 2014. How do you think its perception has changed over the years?
When I was a child I never read the word gay in Indian newspapers. Now I see the word everywhere, even words like lesbian, intersex, transgender, queer. The sheer rise in frequency of the use of these words, positively or negatively, shows something has changed. In Bollywood films, slowly, the queer is being seen not just in villainous or comical roles, but in serious ones. These are indicators that things are shifting. Perhaps the result of globalisation, and the reach of the Internet. I kept hearing that ‘homosexuality is not part of Indian culture’ and so I wrote a book that brought to light all those queer stories no one wanted to talk about. Now, no one can imagine India’s past in binary heteronormative terms.
In one of your interviews you said that “Not everything in India’s past is desirable.” Why do we need to look for affirmations in the past?
In the past, women were not educated and their movements restricted. Surely that is not a desirable past. But in the past, people did acknowledge queer sexuality more openly and were more comfortable with the human desire for pleasure. Surely that is a desirable past. We look at the past to understand our roots, not to seek affirmations. The Right continuously looks for affirmation from the past. The Left seeks to constantly condemn the past. Both, in my view, are extremists.
How do you deal with all the vitriol you receive from some?
Vitriol is a sign of stupidity and ignorance. When I see angry people, I see a market, since I am in the business of knowledge.
How do you manage to be so prolific? Do you ever get writer’s block?
I see the power of mythology that few do. In fact, we are conditioned to mock mythology by our educational system, and not see religion or ideology as just different kinds of mythology. So there is so much opportunity. I am in Aladdin’s cave and I guess the genie ensures I have no writer’s block!
How do you compare mythology in the context of feminism and LGBTQ identities in India and the rest of the ancient world?
In Indian mythology, there are more stories of transgenders than gays and lesbians as compared to Greek mythology. Perhaps that is why Indian government is more comfortable with transgender rights than gay and lesbian rights; it sees the latter as Western.
What is the best way to talk about uncomfortable topics in India, and reach as many people as possible?
Indians hate being singled out. Rather than saying ‘Indians are misogynists’, we prefer hearing that ‘misogyny that is seen worldwide manifests uniquely in India’. We have never been a culture that finds glory in confession. We refuse to admit we are wrong, even when we are wrong. So focus on solutions in India, rather than retribution.
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