Bobi Wine Interview: ‘We’re Happy to Die for a Dignified Life’

As Ugandans head to the polls today, one man has captured the imagination of young Africans across the continent.

Bobi Wine — the musician taking on a septuagenarian president and former rebel leader double his age — has faced arrests, torture and assassination attempts, while on a mission to bring a change of leadership to the East African country for the first time in 36 years.

Yoweri Museveni seized power in 1986. While he initially preached democracy, he has overseen the constitution being changed to remove term limits and an upper age limit so he can continue to run in elections.

On the eve of the election, VICE World News spoke to Wine, whose real name is Robert Kyagulanyi, at his home on the outskirts of Kampala this week.

VICE World News: How are you feeling? Bobi Wine: It’s a mixture of feelings. I’m feeling confident, feeling resolved. Yet I’m feeling very sad and stressed. Of course, I’m blocked from campaigning any further… For the last six days I’m not able to campaign because the electoral commission blocked me from campaigning, illegally.

I’m spending these two days looking for my abducted friends and organising funerals for my murdered friends. Just yesterday 15 of our members were raided and abducted at night, including my assistant who is a neighbour there. We don’t know where they are, our team has tried to look for them at different police stations. They are not there.

**Do you have any idea of where those guys who have been abducted have been taken to?
**It is the habit of the security forces to abduct people and incarcerate them in illegal incarceration centres. Here they’re called safe houses. Safe houses literally means torture chambers so we cannot tell where they are. Many times they’re detained in military barracks and other times they’re detained in safe houses. You will find a house looking so ordinary but being guarded by soldiers. Many of those are torture chambers and that’s where they keep our friends.

**Given all that, and everything that you and your team and your supporters have been put through, would you say that it’s all been worth it?
**What our country has gone through for the last 35 years — the dehumanisation, the abuse of all human rights and democratic rights — I would say everything is worth it when one is fighting for freedom. We want to be free. We want to live a dignified life. We want to be full human beings in our country. So everything is worth it. The pain, the torture, and even the death. Many of our friends have had to pay the ultimate price. This is an idea that Mandela once said, we are ready to live for and happy to die for.

**And what’s been the most difficult part of it to bear?
**The most difficult part for us to bear has been constantly delivering sad news to the families of our young friends that are constantly murdered. Having to attend funerals of young girls and boys that are shot and killed. That are run over by military cars. I always get a feeling of wanting to give up but then looking behind me and seeing all the masses of people putting so much trust in me and us as a team. It has always been a reason for us not to give up. But many times it’s painful.

**And why is it so important for you to continue to take these huge risks for you and everyone around you when so many people have said, yourself included, that Museveni winning is almost a foregone conclusion?
**This is not just about me. This is about 45 million Ugandans. I’ve said it before that yes, I’m fighting against the Museveni dictatorship. No matter how peaceful, no matter how non-violent we are, it’s a big risk. But giving up is an even bigger risk because that means resigning to slavery… People have taken greater risks. Mandela took a greater risk. And all these other people that have been able to lead liberation in their countries. So we’re always encouraged.

**But for you is it worth it if you don’t ultimately get what you set out to do, which is to win the presidency?
**It is not only about the presidency. It does not end with the presidency. I might be arrested, I might disappear like many of our friends. I might even be killed, because so many attempts have been made on my life. My biggest mission is to awaken the minds of the masses. It’s to open as many minds as possible. It’s to multiply myself and have as many Bobi Wines in Uganda as possible. We have largely succeeded in doing that, and the day I see many young people rising from all corners of Uganda to do what I’m doing, to say what I’m saying, and to stand for the same values that I stand for, I see success. So it does not matter whether or not General Museveni rigs the election… When all our people are well awakened it will be game over for the oppression.

**And when you call people out to a rally or a protest and people end up getting killed or are disappeared, do you on some level feel personally responsible for that?
**For starters, I don’t call our people to rallies. I always show up and people show up too because there are so many people that share the same values.

**But you know they’ll be coming to your events in big numbers. Or, for example, on election day calling on them to stay at the polls in the face of what is likely going to be violence.
**I think, in all honestly, it shouldn’t be the victim that takes responsibility for the murder. It should be the murderer. We have a police force who is trained to keep law and order. They are the officers of the law but again they are the chief lawbreakers. We have the military whose constitutional mandate is to guard Ugandans but they are killing people. So the murderers should be and indeed are the ones that are responsible for murdering people, not the victims.

**And who is the murderer in your eyes?
**The chief murderer is General Yoweri Museveni who orders the military and police to kill people. We had a massacre in November, not even two months ago. And General Museveni came out and he spoke to the nation and he said that he saw there were protests and he instructed the military to sort the protesters out, and indeed they sorted them out by murdering well over 100 of them [VICE World News note: The government puts the death toll at 54]. These people were not breaking the law by protesting. Our law provides for a right to protest but in Uganda, under General Museveni, protesting carries a death sentence.

**So do you think if you take office you’ll be able to work with these entrenched elements of Museveni’s regime, like the police and the military?
**When we take government we are going to lead Uganda according to the rule of law. No single police officer will be forced to carry out illegal orders against their conscience, against their oath and against the law. We know that there are very many police officers that feel embarrassed to be working with a system that has no respect whatsoever for the rights of the citizens, and many of them are underpaid and stressed. So we hope to also take care of them. We hope to bridge the gap between the citizens and the security officers to ensure that they serve Ugandans with decency, with honour, with love and with patriotism.

**And what about the other elements of Museveni’s regime. After 30 years there are many factions of government that are loyal to him or also corrupt. Will you be able to work with that system?
**We are going to have a policy of zero tolerance to corruption. Everybody will be equal before and under the law. Nobody will be loyal to the president. We are going to be loyal to the constitution. We are going to empower institutions so that no single individual is stronger than the institutions.

**So what’s priority number one for you if you take office?
**First step is to free all the political prisoners and all the prisoners of conscience. We want to ensure that we abolish all these operative taxes, especially taxes like the social media tax which has blocked the connectivity of Ugandans. As we speak right now, two hours ago the internet was switched off in Uganda. Why? Because General Museveni does not want the world to know what is going on. We are looking at fixing our constitution to ensure that the term limits are brought back and entrenched. Uganda should not see another dictator.

And what do you say to people who say being a popstar with a cause or a national activist is one thing, but it’s very different to actually governing a country. I did not present myself as an administrator. I’m a freedom fighter. But again I also know that part of our biggest problem in Uganda is having the “Big Man” syndrome. I don’t believe in that and that is what I need to lead my people into dismantling. So we can believe in institutions. I don’t have to run everything. If we have institutions of government they will run the show.

It should not be a disadvantage being a popstar. It’s an advantage because I’ve not used it to the detriment of my people. I have used it to rally my people to the right causes.

**And you think that your life experiences have prepared you well for being a president?
**Definitely. One: it has shown me that there is a divide between the masses that are being governed and the few that are governing them and what I believe is that government should be working for the majority.

Sally Hayden contributed to this reporting.

This interview has been edited for length.